Woman declared dead, loses OAS & CPP... but she's alive

Dks01

When Service Canada says you are dead, you are dead to them, as this very alive NB woman found out. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/live-woman-declared-dead-service-canada-1.7451371

GrumpyCanadian

Dks01 From the article:

"Service Canada has taken corrective action to resolve this issue and ensured that benefits have been restored. No fraud or scam is involved in this case," wrote Samuelle Carbonneau.

Are they sure about that? Even if it was a "mistake", could someone else who really is dead still be receiving benefits? Usually a death certificate or coroner/doctor's declaration is required, and the details should be double-checked before someone is recorded as deceased.

I know of one funeral home that "handles that for you". I wonder if all of the same checks are completed in such a case, or if a mistake (or deliberate fraud) by a funeral home worker would get into the system with less validation. Since it's not an isolated incident, something is clearly wrong.

Dks01

GrumpyCanadian given that funeral directors are a regulated profession, fraud is less than likely. The funeral homes that cancel the deceased’s ID after death provide the regular Certificate of Death and have you sign ANY necessary papers.

GrumpyCanadian

Dks01 Clearly, you have much more experience in this area than I ever could (or would want to have).

I only ever saw this once, and the funeral home in question did not have a funeral director handle that paperwork. Whether or not they were supposed to do that, it was someone in more of a sales position who handled the paperwork. Given the situation, I don't clearly remember if everything got a signature, but my recollection was that he entered the details into one of his systems (my impression was a Web-based system) and submitted it on-line; no paper, no signatures. The only things that definitely were on paper were the funeral home certificate and the invoice. We didn't see an actual funeral director until the day of the funeral, after the invoice was paid in full.

In Quebec, the certificate from the funeral home is beyond useless. One needs the declaration of death (from attending physician, etc.) to get the official certificate, and virtually nobody (banks, insurance) will deal with you at all until you have the official certificate issued by the Directeur de l'état civil du Québec.

Whether truly a clerical error at Service Canada or a funeral home, or something more sinister — given the apparent "request" that the woman in question said she never made, and the "neice" she doesn't know — something is definitely not right, and they need to take steps to address the situation, so that more people don't have to keep suffering through situations like these.

HELLFIRE

Obligatory... XD XD

Regards

Dks01

GrumpyCanadian I can't speak for any other province than Ontario, but the primary acceptable and useful proof of death is the Funeral Director's Certificate of Death. It is given to the estate Executor or family when the bill is paid in full. The Certificate of Death from the provincial Office of the Chief Coroner takes months to be issued and is completely useless for estate purposes due to the lag time. It is also not released without cause. The funeral director's certificate is accepted without question by all financial institutions, insurance companies, lawyers, the CRA, Service Canada, Service Ontario and any companies which send you a bill.

When I was acting as an estate Executor I called it my Golden Key. I generally got anything I needed by presenting that certificate. I was also very fortunate that both Service Canada and Service Ontario have offices in my city, so a quick visit to cancel the SIN, the OHIP card and other things was not a problem.

It may well be a staff person who does the work, but the responsibility, at least in Ontario, is 100% on the licensed funeral director. It is literally their license from Bereavement Authority of Ontario that is on the line in how they conduct their business. Errors happen. I get that. But a quick remedy is also essential.

GrumpyCanadian

Dks01 I don't expect to ever have to handle an estate in Ontario, but it is still good to be aware of these differences.

I can't claim to have any expertise in this area, but my understanding is that the delaration of death from an attending physician or other person who can certify a death is what gets the ball rolling in Quebec. I'm not sure if the family gets that document in every case. One then gets the certificate from the funeral home. One may be able to use that to put an initial freeze on accounts, so that nothing else goes into or out of the account, and no transactions are approved against a credit card, but not everyone will accept that. Many won't even talk to you until you have the official certificate, as mentioned previously. Like you say, that takes time. There were even news stories of families stuck in limbo because of a processing backlog, who were stuck continuing to make lease payments on the deceased's car and other similar situations. This was a fairly big problem a few years ago.

Sometimes you can find a notary who is willing to start the process (will search, etc.) before the final certificate is issued, but you're still quite constrained in what you can do without that official document. For the sake of completeness, the official term in Quebec is "liquidator", not executor.

Dks01

GrumpyCanadian The interesting thing in Ontario is that once the death has been reported to a financial institution, the deceased accounts are locked until the bill from the funeral director is paid in full. I have pointed out to funeral directors I know that they have the best collection agency for their outstanding accounts.

The best way around that limitation is to establish a joint bank account with the executor so that access is "joint and severally", allowing either party to have access to the account. That way any expenses post mortem can be easily covered. The other easy way around that restriction is to prepay for funeral services in advance (basically purchasing an insurance policy) that pays out on death. It makes the life of survivors a whole lot easier.

GrumpyCanadian

Dks01 None of which are directly related to the story, but all useful things to keep in mind; thanks for that. It just shows that deviating from the topic of discussion can be useful sometimes.

I don't think the funeral homes and financial institutions communicate here. Certainly, there were no holds placed on accounts pending funeral payment in my experience. They did insist on documentation from a notary and the official Quebec certificate, however; nothing would advance very far without those.

Back to the topic at hand, it seems that Ms. Adams has made some progress (https://chco.tv/charlotte-county-woman-declared-dead-by-service-canada/). Much like my suspicions voiced above, she is not so sure there isn't something more sinister going on (she seems to suspect identity theft), given the series of things that happened, all in a short time.

taraf

actually happens fairly often in some parts of the world -- I was watching a documentary last week about a woman in the US who had the same thing happen. somebody does a typo entering data, and a person's life is ruined. they said it happens to ₁₀₀₀ americans a year. would guess our number is proportional, so ₅₀-100 canadians?

styvas

taraf The mistakes are somewhat understandable. It’s the incompetence and delays in rectifying them and hat is the real problem.

styvas

styvas Different context, but it reminds me of the pigheadedness demonstrated by Air Canada (as recently reported) when connecting flight tickets are canceled because the passenger was apparently not on the previous flight, despite them being present at the airport (how did they get there?), some having actually taken selfies on the plane, and at least one guy with a receipt from the in-flight bar service identifying the flight number and his seat. Yet Air Canada simply refused to acknowledge what was self-evident and it took a court to order them to. Or something along those lines.

Thane_Bitter

styvas Read that story. Must have been fun with the AC lawyer arguing that the checkmarks in software was somehow more "factual" than a man with receipts, photos and luggage tags of him on the flight.

I feel sorry for this lady, it's going to take her a while before its all cleared up and she probably will have issues down the road years from now as the ripples of incompetence or error travel into the future. While this sort of thing doesn't happen a lot it does make the news frequently enough, someone should come up with a guide that helps people navigate through the system and restore their status. Suggested title "So You Are Dead, Now What? - A Guide for the Living Dead as They Battle Against Against the Brain Dead Bureaucracy that Killed Them.."

Dks01

GrumpyCanadian BBF = Topic Drift R Us.