Canada down selects two shipbuilders for future sub project

HELLFIRE · 2025-08-27T02:59:11+00:00

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2025/08/canada-down-selects-two-shipbuilders-for-future-canadian-patrol-submarine-project/ (Published on 26/08/2025) The Government of Canada has announced that it has shortlisted two major shipbuilders to continue the procurement process for Canada’s future patrol submarine project (CPSP), which will replace the current fleet of Victoria-class submarines. … Today, the Honourable Joël Lightbound, Minister of Government Transformation, Public Works and Procurement, and the Honourable Stephen Fuhr, Secretary of State (Defence Procurement), announced that the Government of Canada has identified German company Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS) and Korean company Hanwha Ocean Co., Ltd. (Hanwha) as the 2 qualified suppliers for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP). … Shared this story back in the DSLR days. Figured was worth updating for fellow Canadians. According to the article, France’s Naval Group, Spain’s Navantia and Sweden’s Saab was also in the running. Regards

Xstar_Lumini

Good lucks with that diesel technology when major adversaries are using nuclear subs. What are we thinking!

Dks01

Xstar_Lumini Good lucks with that diesel technology when major adversaries are using nuclear subs. What are we thinking!

Not your grandfather’s U-Boat. The Class 212CD uses diesel and hydrogen fuel cells

HELLFIRE

Thanks for that update @Dks01 . “We’ll See!”

….and while I won’t knock Canada’s nuclear knowhow, sure people understand the difference between book learning and actually doing something…

Never mind the end-to-end lifecycle infrastructure and costs for a nuclear navy. The UK got a foot up in that game by directly purchasing a S5W reactor from the US, but it’s been a monumental PITA in the decommissioning and disposal of their old nuc boats : https://www.neimagazine.com/news/uk-to-defuel-old-nuclear-subs/?cf-view (Jun 16 2025)

… Of the 16 decommissioned boats now in storage at Devonport, 12 still have their nuclear fuel on board. Until 2003, boats had their fuel removed soon after decommissioning but the facilities for defueling were deemed no longer safe enough to meet modern regulation standards and the process was halted. …

The US has their SRP but sure everyone knows how “NIMBY” goes : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship-Submarine_Recycling_Program

The USSR dumped a bunch of old reactors in the Barents Sea and Kara Sea IIRC.

What China and India are going to do with their old reactors, you got me…

Regards

MichelR

HELLFIRE The Mulroney tried to buy nuclear subs in the early ’90s and there was a huge public backlash.

HELLFIRE

MichelR there was a huge public backlash.

Pretty sure I shared this on DSLR. Public backlash was one of the multitude of factors against a Canadian SSN program based on US-technology : https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA437607.pdf

Considering the readily apparent s**tshow herding the cats back then, people REALLY think Canada should try this again?

shrugs

Regards

HELLFIRE

My quick google-fu didn’t find any details about how China disposed of their 1st gen Han SSN and Xia SSBN reactor cores.

Going by this – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submarines_of_the_Indian_Navy – India returned the Russian SSNs they leased, but I can’t find anything publicly about the management and disposal of their indigenous nuclear reactor cores.

https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ml1922/ML19227A143.pdf – S5G Reactor Compartment Disposal Package, to show you can’t just show up at a USG disposal site with a (still) hot core for disposal.

Regards

Xstar_Lumini

Dks01 Not your grandfather’s U-Boat. The Class 212CD uses diesel and hydrogen fuel cells

And yet our adversaries the Chinese and Russians use nuke powered subs. Nuclear subs can stay fully submerged for months. Good luck with that with your fancy fuel cells. Seems like our subs will be in a grave with our grandfather’s u-boats in any armed competition. Fortune favours the superior technology.

Dks01

Xstar_Lumini Good luck with that with your fancy fuel cells.

The technology is over a century old.

https://www.hydrogenoptimized.com/solutions

Dks01

HELLFIRE Pretty sure I shared this on DSLR. Public backlash was one of the multitude of factors against a Canadian SSN program based on US-technology

Yes. the nuclear option is far, more expensive and carries with it a huge amount of long term risk.

Dks01

An interesting commentary on the two bids.

Politics This Morning chewed over the German sub decision yesterday with Darren Hawco, the executive adviser for defence at Deloitte Canada. Before he took on that role, Hawco was a vice-admiral with the Royal Canadian Navy, and his career included stints leading “force development” for the Canadian Armed Forces, taking charge of Canada’s Atlantic Fleet, and commanding the frigate HMCS Ottawa.

The two submarines that Canada was choosing between have different strengths, said Hawco. The German 212 has a “real pedigree of stealth and capability,” he said, though this particular model has yet to be put into operation.

The South Korean KSS offered extra space for trainees or special operators to ride along on missions, and a greater long-range missile strike capability, he said.

The economic benefits package offered by the German/Norwegian bid includes a greater focus on industrial development and infrastructure, while the South Korean package was more centred on technology partnerships, he said.

Hill Times (paywall)

bennor

Xstar_Lumini And yet our adversaries the Chinese and Russians use nuke powered subs.

And they both use diesel-electric powered subs as well. Russia with something like 23 conventional powered subs and China with 48. Generally comes down to the mission design for the sub (in shore or deep water) as to which propulsion and power plant method works best for the situation. There are also additional training and maintenance issues and costs that come along with using nuclear power as the power plant. Each method has their advantages and disadvantages. There are only something like six or seven countries that have or are currently building nuclear powered submarines.

Thane_Bitter

Xstar_Lumini And yet our adversaries the Chinese and Russians used nuke…..

Why do they?
Edit: Also what sort of subs does El Salvador have (aside the drug cartel transport type)?

HELLFIRE

https://nationalsecurityjournal.org/canada-can-barely-keep-one-submarine-at-sea-so-it-just-committed-to-tripling-the-fleet-in-its-biggest-naval-overhaul-in-decades/ – Canada Can Barely Keep One Submarine at Sea — So It Just Committed to Tripling the Fleet in Its Biggest Naval Overhaul in Decades

… The contract for the submarines is estimated to initially cost $24 billion, though accounting for lifetime program costs could bring that figure to over $100 billion. … Carney acknowledged that the decision would surely be a disappointment to South Koreans, but said that “there are a series of other initiatives Canada and Korea are pursuing that build our economic resilience and security footprint.”…

Sure the budget hawks are already suffering sticker shock at those numbers.

As to the SKoreans, I genuinely hope there’s “other initiatives” afoot…. before the thread was locked, discovering SKorea was a major producer of Group III/+ oils for synthetics, I’m sure they’d be VERY interested in Canada’s oilsands.

Regards

Dks01

Farewell, Hanwa. At least in the short term.

A South Korean shipbuilding company is withdrawing from a partnership to build a training hub with Mohawk College and Ontario Shipyards in Hamilton because Canada has chosen to buy navy submarines from a German company instead of Hanwha Ocean.

The remaining partners say Hanwha’s support was “significant,” but their initiative is not dead in the water.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/hanwha-ocean-mohawk-college-ontario-shipyard-9.7261352

Doubtful Kia or Hyundai will build a car plant in Canada, either.

Xstar_Lumini

Thane_Bitter Also what sort of subs does El Salvador have

Why do you ask that? El Salvador does not seem to figure into the discussion.

Thane_Bitter

Xstar_Lumini Neither did Russia and China but you brought them up without understanding what subs they have and what sort of mission they perform, thus why they are the way they are. In short, and without making this a novel Canada doesn’t have first strike nuclear weapons, it therefore it does not require nuclear powered subs.

El Salvador has a navy, but it has no subs and has no nuclear powered ships, though oddly as they replace their ships, they also are not purchasing US ships and have tapped another nation to build their ships.

Hydraglass

There’s one reason and one reason only why you spend the money on nuclear powered submarines. They have one feature no other subs have - the ability to stay submerged for an unlimited amount of time not needing to come up for air - and the only reason you want a submarine that can stay submerged deep under the sea for an unlimited period of time is if you’re permanently stationing it off the coast of an adversary loaded up with ballistic missiles as a fast response tool – and you only do that if you’re a country with nukes and that style of military - essentially Russia and the US. For the rest of us - a hybrid diesel electric sub can stay underwater plenty long for normal military actions, typically in the 2-3 week range if they are not motoring extensively.

Delonar

Thane_Bitter El Salvador has a navy

Where is the El Salvador connection coming from? I’ve read all the links and posts and can’t find a connection.

Dks01

The other, unspoken side of nuclear submarines is that they smell.

In addition to the amine smell, submarine crews are exposed to cooking odors, hydraulic oil vapors, diesel exhaust that isn’t quite captured by the diesel exhaust system, inboard venting of the sanitary tanks, and the smell of a large number of closely confined people. The interiors become quite fragrant. Crew members become accustomed to it and after a while never notice it. But other people do.’

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/us-navy-submariner-explains-why-sailors-aboard-nuclear-submarines-have-a-fishy-ammonia-smell/

Hydraglass

Delonar Where is the El Salvador connection coming from? I’ve read all the links and posts and can’t find a connection.

Historic - relating to the poster who was complaining we aren’t buying nuclear subs but diesel instead - he has strong connections to El Salvador and claims they do everything better than Canada and can’t wait to become a Canadian ex-pat living there.

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