Verizon Copper Retirement Tracking Thread - Ex-Bell Atlantic Footprint

Zenit_IIfx

SHAG Seidenberg was a great CEO, because he worked his way up the ladder and was a Bell lifer. Started out as a cable splicer, worked his way up to OSP engineer, then transmission design engineer, district technical planning manager, then pivoted to the regulations management side of the house. Eventually became the CEO of NYNEX, then CEO of BA when BA and NYNEX merged. A true ladder climb from bottom to top. The prior BA CEO, Raymond Smith, likewise ascended the Bell ladder from an engineering position to CEO of the newly independent BA.

IMO most of the reason why BA and early Verizon were so forward looking was because they were still mostly run with the Bell System engineering mindset - build it once, build it right, the network is the solution, you cannot defeat Shannon (physics).

McAdam was not great and really followed the GTE school of running a “telecom” company - let’s get into a bunch of side businesses and burn funeral pyres of money. Media! Web 2.0! Very un-Bell. He was the right CEO for the recession for Wall St but wrong for everything else. His bet on wireless at the time did pay off in the short term, however the bet on LTE being a copper replacement was basically wrong for anything beyond the most basic of service. We saw the implementation of deferred maintenance (or rather, no maintenance) on the copper plant and the slow shrinkage of the wireline footprint as chunks of territory got sold off to FTR and others. To me, this era signified the cheapening of the VZ name from engineering excellence to a cheap, penny pinching, uncaring entity that was glad to abandon countless communities. RIP Spirit of Service.

Hans was a transitional CEO who likely wanted to buy more gear from his alma mater Ericsson as his first priority. He closed out McAdam’s worst side-quests and bet the farm on 5G. Started to pivot to FTTP near the end of his tenure, but not fast enough for Wall St. Hans likely made the right choice in buying Frontier and re-acquiring most of what Verizon disposed of under McAdam. I think he will be remembered retroactively in a more positive light than currently.

Schulman has distant Bell System roots, having started his career in New Jersey Bell in the financial office. Perhaps he got indoctrinated enough, it sure seems like it with the hard pivot and public re-focus into FTTP.

This current era is interesting for Verizon, because this is the last window of time where people with institutional memory going back to the 1980’s and 1990’s will be around in significant capacity. The bones of a solid engineering driven, quality focused organization are still there. This knowledge can still be passed down.

In 2026, Verizon looks a lot more like Bell Atlantic 1996 than Verizon 2016 with regards to the wireline business.

GHz-Man

Zenit_IIfx The focus on fixed wireless instead of fiber always seemed like an odd choice to me, for both AT&T and Verizon. It’s good to see the new CEO reversing course on that.

It made sense for T-Mobile, since they basically had no fiber and still have very little.

But you can see they’re already hitting capacity limits, and are forced to cap the speeds at DOCSIS 3.0 speeds like 100/10, 150/15, 300/20 to avoid congesting the cell towers even more.

Adding capacity on cell towers isn’t quick or easy or cheap, they need to wait years for the FCC to auction more spectrum, then climb each tower to add equipment.

Going from 1Gb to 10Gb to 25Gb to 50Gb on FTTH is much simpler and quicker in comparison, and once the fiber is there it doesn’t need to be touched for decades.

With government funding if necessary, I just wish they’d all upgrade 100% of their DSL footprints to fiber and be done with it.

px_eliezer_

Zenit_IIfx Seidenberg was a great CEO….. etc etc

Thanks for a very interesting and informed analysis !!

cypherstream

GHz-Man I can’t imagine the complaints in our township if things get dug up yet a third time if Verizon finally decides to upgrade to fiber 15 years too late.

2022- Comcast contractors dug us all up to install HFC (wasn’t a Comcast area before)
2025-2026 - SECV dug us up to install FTTH alongside of their docsis cable plant.

Now we’re thinking maybe a third “big dig” for Verizon? I don’t mind, once it’s done it’s in the ground. But lots of people complained. Damaged sidewalks, flower beds, utilities being hit, etc.

GHz-Man

cypherstream Verizon could’ve done it 20-30 years ago, like they originally promised to lol

They had been promising FTTH since the 1990s.

https://www.techdirt.com/2013/10/17/decades-failed-promises-verizon-it-promises-fiber-to-get-tax-breaks-then-never-delivers/

cypherstream But lots of people complained. Damaged sidewalks, flower beds, utilities being hit, etc.

Lots of people complain about lots of things. Utilities have the legal right to install service in public rights of way owned by the city or state.

Look at the outrage every time a new cell tower is built. Grandparents cry and scream in their local town hall meeting about getting cancer from the 5G towers:

https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/new-hampshire-judge-dismisses-50m-lawsuit-that-claims-cell-towers-cause-health-hazards/

https://vineyardgazette.com/news/2026/03/29/verizon-takes-chilmark-court-over-denied-cell-plans

Even if the town rejects the permit, Verizon or whoever sues the town and wins in court, and the tower gets built.

compuguy

Zenit_IIfx Maybe they are in some parts of VA, but at least here in Burke & West Springfield the copper plant is still here. Heck for several years the big T1 boxes were still energized for some reason even though the POTS copper plant had been decommissioned for several years at that point.

GHz-Man Sometimes. AT&T wanted to build a tower next to one of my planned communities pools/community centers roughly a decade ago. They made a big enough stink that it never happened. Verizon got a tower built nearby behind a Kohls. NGL, because of tree cover, hills and LOS that tower would have been a great addition if other carriers were added. Lots of people in my condo development that would have benefited from cell densification. On the flip side whomever in my neighborhood owned nocelltower.net never renewed the domain so, I’ve been the owner of that domain. Was kind of funny when those nocelltower dot net signs came back years later, because I had the domain go to various articles (now Wikipedia’s 5G misinformation) that were the opposite of nimby.

got2getlife

FIOS rollout for the Netcong CO seems to be progressing, bunch of dig requests to install conduit for Verizon near “Aldersgate Circle” in Budd Lake this week. That area only has copper + Optimum fiber atm. It looks like they are using “REAL COMMUNICATION LLC” as a sub in the area in addition to “J FLETCHER CREAMER & SON” now

Web-Shooter

I’m skeptical how much of the footprint will actually be upgraded, but I guess we’ll see.

By my estimation, only maybe 40% of their original POTS/DSL footprint has been upgraded to FiOS.

They abandoned the rest when they stopped selling POTS/DSL a few years ago, and are retiring their copper COs:

https://www.verizon.com/about/terms-conditions/network-disclosures

This is one of the COs they’re abandoning:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/zDhSxSRiuJvKQsjGA

In their copper retirement notice, they say:

The copper facilities being retired supported services dependent on obsolete
time-division multiplexing and used SS7 signaling. The vast majority of affected locations will
have access to fixed or mobile wireless voice or broadband service from multiple providers -
including Verizon Wireless - or another wireline option, including VoIP service from Verizon
Delaware or a cable company.

To me, that doesn’t sound like they plan to upgrade it to FiOS lol

They’re basically saying “Switch to Comcast”

Zenit_IIfx

Web-Shooter Oh I don’t like that new wording -at all-. Purcellville was a good example of a copper retirement where the notice flapped around in the breeze for 5 years before construction actually moved, but the wording was the old “we will replace all copper with fiber” instead of the new “we are retiring and there are other choices” wording. Perhaps this new wording was invented over at Frontier and brought over as it does not tie VZ to any liability.

It is looking like Verizon’s behavior is going to vary state by state. All I can confirm for sure is that VZ VA (aka C&P Telephone of Virginia) has been oddly aggressive with builds, even going as far as to start brand new greenfield FiOS builds in CO’s that were just POTS/DSL until recently.

It would be a real shame to see them back off and pivot to wireless again and it would show how indecisive VZ management is. 1 moment 5G is the future, then FiOS again, then 5G again. Huh? This is a business with decade-long planning horizons, not 15 minute. They just told Wall St. that Fiber is the focus now. Are they going to back off of that at the next quarterly earnings report?

Web-Shooter

In their older copper retirement notice from 2019 for Delaware, they said:

Verizon has deployed or plans to deploy its fiber-to-the-premises network in these areas and intends to provide services over a fiber network infrastructure.

But it’s now been 6 years since that wire center was retired, and the area still has zero FiOS. They just completely abandoned their copper network entirely in the Lewes / Rehoboth Beach, DE area with no replacement.

So either they were lying, or their plans changed for some reason. Or they mean “plans to deploy” by the year 2050 lol

But I wouldn’t read too much into those statements, even if it says they have plans to deploy FiOS.

cypherstream

Here in PA, they repointed our local co so some other one MUCH further away, from what I heard.
https://www.verizon.com/about/sites/default/files/2024-08-30-Verizon-Saint-Lawrence-PA-LT-Switch-Retirement-Notice.pdf

I don’t think they will ever put fios here. Too much going on. Comcast, Service Electric Fiber. Nobody wants to be the third wheel. Further back in the City and west you have Fastbridge fiber.

Web-Shooter

Zenit_IIfx I’m going to send a letter to the Director of Network Transformation and ask what the plans are. Worth a shot, even if he ignores me haha

Their 2019 letter definitely said they had plans to upgrade to fiber, and now 7 years later there’s still nothing.

penberth

Web-Shooter

I am seeing the four nodes under the location ID now. And I am now able to open a ticket online for those nodes.

My CO in NY was also listed at that same time (back in 2019) for retirement “on or after September, 2020.”

Earlier this year, I just finally started seeing some movement on that CO. I confirmed with a Verizon tech that I know that Verizon is starting to build within my CO.

In my text to him on March 25, 2026, he mentioned a few streets that they were working on. Checking a random address this morning on one of those streets shows that FIOS is available to it. So, it seems that they are finally moving on my CO.

Like you, it has been about 6 years since the initial announcement, but I guess better late than never.

got2getlife

@SHAG Saw a bunch of new fiber bundles lashed to the existing Verizon fiber/copper around Netcong on 46 & 183 today. Looks like they’re doing Netcong itself too and possibly heading south?

New fiber as of this week, I think maybe even today? It did not exist on Street View from last month or here

I had only seen it out west near Budd Lake previously. Curious to see when the first sections will be lit up and ready for ordering

SHAG

I just found out yesterday my friend who worked for Verizon was laid off. He was let go back in February. I haven’t talked to him since November/ December. I would have reached out to him and find out what is happening but he would not be too much help! lol. We have a few rolls of fiber every so often. Fiber was lashed to the copper in my section of Budd Lake. However, there does not appear than any further work has been done. I hope this isn’t something like we “passed x amount of homes….” marketing lie, I mean line.

got2getlife

Yeah they seem to be moving real slow, but I guess it’s semi understandable since they’re building from scratch instead of expanding from existing plant. I might try emailing some of the network disclosure contacts and see if I get a response (probably not lol)

got2getlife

Another interesting development out of Netcong, there is now fiber lashed to the copper & fiber bundles spooled on poles on the Netcong-fed side of Mooney Mountain in Ledgewood. It was ran sometime this or last week, now I’m really curious what the buildout plans are. I honestly didn’t expect them to start working around here this quick.

got2getlife

So it looks like they really are serious about building out most of the Netcong CO including the rural areas. They ran fiber down Waterloo Rd & Waterloo Valley Rd this week, even in the super rural parts. Some of these areas only ever had POTS available, no DSL or cable. On Mooney Rd, they spliced that fiber bundle into the existing underground vault. They seem to be reusing a lot of the existing underground infra/conduits, even those from the Bell/Bell Atlantic era with existing copper

Were also spotted running fiber up Rt 183 & 206 into Stanhope/Byram last week:

I tried emailing some addresses I found about it, but no responses ☹️ Dying to know if we’re on the buildout list lol

Zenit_IIfx

Verizon has 2Gbps FiOS now in the Purcellville CO. I was tempted, but won’t upgrade yet. Buildouts still rolling in all of the locations I listed above, VZ’s Northwestern VA group is probably completely overwhelmed with plant build outs right now.

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