Passenger jet, Army helicopter collide

TC1USCG

real_aurgathor I live in an area where air craft from Keesler AFB do touch and goes all the time at Guflport International airport. Though not as busy as other airports, Keesler has it's own runways. There's a Air National Guard facility located adjacent to the commercial airport also and from what I've seen, they use the same runways as the rest of the planes landing there. Even Keeslers F35's do approaches, touch and goes at this air port. When they are done, they jump over to the Keesler runways. I've even seen Coast Guard Jayhawks (H60's) fly by who are out of ATC Mobile (training center for CG helo's/pilots) and New Orleans. Heck, when I lived in Michigan, my work place was near (about 1 block) from the hospital). The Coast Guard would do training with the hospital all the time where they would fly in, land, take off, etc so the pilots could keep their skills up to snuff. To my knowledge, which is aged at best, there are no active or air national guard units stationed at said airport. There's helos at Andrews and Belvoir. It appears the helo had taken off from Belvoir and it's SOP for them to hug the bank of the river then jot across the river. In a nut shell, it apperas the helo didn't see the jet and just t-boned it.

px_eliezer_

Heat84

Orlando Airport is MCO in recognition of the former McCoy Air Force Base.

The code has always been MCO.

Just as O'Hare in Chicago is ORD because it used to be Orchard Field Airport.

Astyanax

px_eliezer_

px_eliezer_ Orlando Airport is MCO in recognition of the former McCoy Air Force Base.

The code has always been MCO.

It was the AFB the U2 flights originated from during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Rook

Some graphics of the flight paths of the two aircraft: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/30/us/washington-dc-plane-crash-helicopter-maps-photos.html?unlocked_article_code=1.tE4.YzjG.ZviuaLZ3Y_Fa&smid=url-share

px_eliezer_

I used to live not far from Reagan (Washington National) Airport.

It is such a congested region in all respects, worse now than ever.

Because of the airport's location and geography, some people have wanted it shut down or to have fewer flights.

But so many Congress people (and other officials) use it and it is so much more convenient than BWI (Baltimore) or Dulles...

RIP to all the deceased.

px_eliezer_

Trump is blaming Biden and DEI.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/30/trump-lashes-out-at-biden-dei-efforts-after-dc-plane-crash.html
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/trump-blames-dei-dc-plane-crash

This is NOT a political comment----simply what is being reported in the news.

bbbc

px_eliezer_
Trump is blaming Biden and DEI.
This is NOT a political comment----simply what is being reported in the news.

I love this new forum, but I have no clue how we can discuss the new administration for the next four years when it will affect so many aspects of our lives. Does this forum software not allow for member-only discussions / readability?

Heat84

px_eliezer_

px_eliezer_ Trump is blaming Biden and DEI.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/30/trump-lashes-out-at-biden-dei-efforts-after-dc-plane-crash.html
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/trump-blames-dei-dc-plane-crash

This is NOT a political comment----simply what is being reported in the news.

DEI should be a suspect or at least a person of interest, but it's way to early to put the blame squarely on anything. But when a plane crashes, there's always more than one cause. Trump probably shouldn't have mentioned it. But Obama did do this, so although it is too early to put the blame on DEI, or anything for that matter, it has to be in the conversation.

HFB1217

This is not the First time or incident of a Military Training Flight Colliding or for near misses and because of them the Military and the FAA made a ruling in the past that all Military Training Flights were to be conducted out of and away from commercial Air Space and Landing Zones. At the time the Air Force was using Commercial Flights for their Fighter Jet Targeting practices which had resulted in Multiple near misses and a collision
So I guess that the ruling was ignored, forgotten or it was unknown to that trainer and crew.

px_eliezer_

HFB1217

At the time the Air Force was using Commercial Flights for their Fighter Jet Targeting practices which had resulted in Multiple near misses

I remember reading about that long ago, because the commercial pilots were super pissed off and (with good reason) quite alarmed.

px_eliezer_

From the NY Times....

Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal” during the deadly late-night crash between a passenger jet and an Army helicopter that killed 67 people, a preliminary Federal Aviation Administration report said, as bodies of the victims were being recovered Thursday from the icy Potomac.

The internal report reviewed by The New York Times said the controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity on Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways — jobs typically assigned to two different controllers. President Trump promised on Thursday that a thorough investigation would be conducted, while also engaging in political attacks on his predecessors....

Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, which sits just south of the capital, was already one of the country’s most congested flight hubs before Congress voted last year to have it take on even more traffic, over the objections of some local lawmakers who warned the move would be flirting with disaster. The additional flights are expected to begin in the coming weeks.

GrumpyCanadian

px_eliezer_ Staffing levels are problematic, so you send out a mass "buyout" offer to federal employees; what could possibly go wrong? Somebody must be smoking something really good!

Rook

Apparently the Tower was understaffed when the accident happened: from N.Y. Times Live updates page

The internal report reviewed by The New York Times said the controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity on Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways — jobs typically assigned to two different controllers.
...
This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.

Sparkchaser

Rook

Rook This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.

Controllers have always been overworked, one thing I never understood. Remember Reagan firing them?
What I don't understand is why the helicopter had to train in the dark in an area like that. Or be there at anytime.

px_eliezer_

Sparkchaser

Controllers have always been overworked, one thing I never understood. Remember Reagan firing them?
What I don't understand is why the helicopter had to train in the dark in an area like that. Or be there at anytime.

Ironic that the airport is named for him.

Never thought about how the controllers must feel about working there.

This is the airport for the national capital---

There are multiple military installations throughout the area, these flights are not unusual.

Training exercises and proficiency exercises (some reports say this was more of the latter) have to take place in various settings day or night.

It will have to be determined whether this was from understaffing and/or human error, or poor system design, other causes, or a combination.

Ironically the FAA Administrator had resigned on January 20.

He had not planned to resign originally (he had several years remaining in his term), but Musk had a grudge against him.
https://www.theverge.com/news/603113/faa-chief-musk-dc-plane-crash-crisis

Rook

Sparkchaser Overworked, and there aren't enough of them.
From April 2024: Buttigieg: US needs more air traffic controllers

“We need more, and we’re hiring more,” Buttigieg said Wednesday on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.”

“If you look at just a chart over the last 30 years or so, the number of air traffic controllers has gone down and down and down, until recently where we finally got that number going up,” he continued.

“We hired 1,500, then 1,800 in this year. We’re requesting a budget from Congress and let us hire 2,000 next year so that you don’t have as much of this concern about controllers being overworked.”

An underappreciated high stress job with incredibly high stakes if something goes wrong. That can't be good for one's mental stability. Even if it turns out that the air traffic controller in this accident is totally blameless, more still need to be hired so airports aren't understaffed.

Blackbird

Sparkchaser What I don't understand is why the helicopter had to train in the dark in an area like that. Or be there at anytime.

Congress-critters, military brass, and assorted other bigwigs orbiting around the Federal government all make extensive use of military helicopters in the DC area - day and night. Lots of aircraft implies lots of pilots and crews, all of whom need to become experienced in actual flying within these most complex air corridors in the world and whom are subject to typical military rotation. The outcome of the crash investigations will probably at least include significant changes to various procedures and the multiple layers of navigation, transponder, and communications equipment on various aircraft types operating in that airspace... but it's early days for speculating too deeply about the exact cause of this disaster.

Astyanax

px_eliezer_

px_eliezer_
Ironic that the airport is named for him.

Never thought about how the controllers must feel about working there.

It should make them be more focused and punctual. It would me! 😉

DCA wasn't named Reagan National until 1998 which was like nearly 20 years after the strike but Reagan himself was still alive.

HooRU

Blaming DEI and ranting about opponents in the face of real people who died is not cool. These are not good times we are living in. Politics is being inserted in apolitical places and rabble rousing is de Jeur.

broknsymetry

I often had to work on electronics in the Horseshoe (Air Control Center) and the Tower at NAS Cecil Field, I sure as hell would not want the ATC job, way too much stress.

egeezer

Heat84

It was McCoy AFB until 1975 when it became a civilian airport.
See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCoy_Air_Force_Base

It kept MCO and KMCO, the former base's ICAO designation.

mmmdonuts

GrumpyCanadian Right. Because a critical and high skills job is understaffed they shouldn't get rid of the underworked office staff (not at the office) that occupy thousands of useless Federal positions.

Rook

GrumpyCanadian It's the new "ready, fire!, aim" method of running a country.
Hopefully it's a short-lived experiment.

dave

Heat84

Nonsense.

egeezer

Heat84 DEI should be a suspect or at least a person of interest
Yes, It's entirely possible and perfectly reasonable to investigate whether the crew was distracted by watching MSNBC on their phones instead of watching for possible collisions.

And then there's the very high possibility of space lasers throwing off VFR piloting and generating false images in night vision headsets. We need to subpoena Italian military for their testimony, and ground all satellites until this is thoroughly investigated. Anything less would mean a cover-up.

So many great theories, so little time.

Heat84

ESPN: 14 linked to figure skating were on crashed airplane in D.C.🙁

Heat84

You must have to be a major masochist to be an air traffic controller. Not just because of having so many people's lives in your hands, but also because it takes 2.5 years just to train for the job. I assume they all make at least 100k. I wouldn't do that job for any less than that.

« Previous Page Next Page »