Waymo vs. Tesla FSD

real_aurgathor

This time it wasn’t a Wile E. Coyote test, but some driving in San Francisco, and Tesla’s FSD failed in a rather spectacular fashion by *running a red light*!!! 😲

Business Insider: We put Tesla’s FSD and Waymo’s robotaxi to the test. One shocking mistake made the winner clear.

https://tech.yahoo.com/transportation/articles/put-teslas-fsd-waymos-robotaxi-080101482.html

The Tesla’s console screen showed how the car detected the red light and came to a dutiful stop. Then, despite the traffic light not changing, the Tesla drove ahead.

It’s not necessarily related to their respective performances since that red light running was most likely a SW bug,, but there was a huge difference between the amount of hardware used for self driving:

The Waymo robotaxis are equipped with the company’s fifth-generation Waymo Driver and guided by five lidar sensors, six radars, and 29 cameras.

Barr’s Tesla was equipped with Hardware 4 and FSD Supervised software v13.2.8. Tesla released a minor update to the software days after this test was conducted. The vehicle has eight external cameras.

Delonar

People run red lights all the time. It doesn’t make the news.

GrumpyCanadian

Delonar Correct, but when the companies and various publications continue to claim that their AI/software-based system is “a better driver than most humans”, while the actual product repeatedly does its best to prove otherwise, it should make the news. This wasn’t some tricky situation or elaborate test; it was a simple traffic light. If a design still can’t even get that right, it is the responsibility of the designers to ask themselves what they got wrong, and fix it immediately. This isn’t just a game that crashed and can be restarted; it’s a multi-thousand-kilogram vehicle on public roads, that can kill people. If they don’t agree that they have to do better, then put it in the garbage already!

Delonar

GrumpyCanadian Correct, but when the companies and various publications continue to claim that their AI/software-based system is “a better driver than most humans”, while the actual product repeatedly does its best to prove otherwise, it should make the news.

I would like to see something that shows that self driving cars run more red lights than humans adjusted for miles driven or trips taken. I suspect the opposite is true even though I’m not even pro-self driving cars.

Somewhat-Reticent

After stopping at a red light, a right turn - if safe - is permissible
in many jurisdictions. This distinction may not have been encoded properly.

real_aurgathor

Somewhat-Reticent After stopping at a red light, a right turn - if safe - is permissible

While it’s not stated explicitly if this was just a right turn at red, or going through it, the article implies that it was NOT a right turn.

We didn’t come close to hitting any cars or humans on the street — Tesla’s FSD is good at spotting such risks, and the main source of traffic coming across our path had been stopped by another traffic light. However, the vehicle slowly drove through this red light, which left us both somewhat shocked at the time.

And there is some evidence from other sources that this was not an isolated event.

Some Tesla drivers appeared to have reported similar issues in online forums and in videos that showed the vehicle recognizing the red light but driving ahead. One YouTuber showed how the Tesla first came to a stop at a red light and then continued driving before the light changed.

real_aurgathor

Delonar People run red lights all the time. It doesn’t make the news.

Largely irrelevant.

1) An oft repeated claim by self-driving car advocates is that it is not making (human) mistakes and so it can be safer than human drivers.
2) “running the red light” usually means that people still drive through it right after it turned from green to red. That is fairly common and I normally see several examples of that on most days, even though I don’t drive that much lately. However, I don’t usually see drivers stopping at the red light, and then driving through it anyway.

I’m not sure about the approval process for robotaxis, but I tend to think that errors like these would result in an ‘insta-fail’.

egeezer

If a self driving vehicle with no human in control is the cause of injury, death or property damage, who is responsible for the damages?

Also, should self driving cars be required to take a driver’s test like humans do?

real_aurgathor

egeezer If a self driving vehicle with no human in control is the cause of injury, death or property damage, who is responsible for the damages?

That depends on whether the lack of control is due to human negligence [many Tesla crashes with inattentive drivers] or by design: robotaxis, where humans can be blocked from taking control.

egeezer Also, should self driving cars be required to take a driver’s test like humans do?

They should, though probably not in the way like humans do.

egeezer

real_aurgathor a self driving vehicle with no human in control is the cause of injury,…

There’s the problem.. from a liability perspective, from whom would the victim recover? I can see finger pointing between the vehicle’s owner. Lessor/lessee, vehicle manufacturer, software manufacturer and more. The people at the top of the supply chain will reasonably seek to insulate themselves through corporate and LLC structuring, subcontracting and other third party arrangements. The overwhelming majority of software licenses specify their associated products “as is” with no express or implied warranties.

real_aurgathor

egeezer I can see finger pointing between the vehicle’s owner. Lessor/lessee, vehicle manufacturer, software manufacturer and more

I don’t think this will be as much of an issue as you seem to imply:
1) these cars usually have plenty of cameras, so based on what they record, assigning fault is likely to be easier
2) based on the exact failure, the responsible party should be fairly obvious more often than not – i.e. running a red light probably has not nothing to do with the mechanical aspects of a car
3) but if all else fail, the court and lawyers will decide

Splitpair

real_aurgathor This time it wasn’t a Wile E. Coyote test, but some driving in San Francisco, and Tesla’s FSD failed in a rather spectacular fashion by running a red light!!!

Comparing apples to oranges, the Tesla is not designed to be a driver-less vehicle it is a driver assisted vehicle.

real_aurgathor

Splitpair Comparing apples to oranges, the Tesla is not designed to be a driver-less vehicle it is a driver assisted vehicle.

It is a driver supervised mode, but there are at least 2 problems with it:

a) is the still called self-driving, to be exact: “ Full Self-Driving (Supervised)”

Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. Additionally with Full Self-Driving (Supervised), you can drive your Tesla vehicle almost anywhere, making lane changes, select forks to follow your navigation route, navigate around other vehicles and objects and make left and right turns under your active supervision. When used properly, Autopilot and FSD (Supervised) reduce your overall workload as a driver.

b) once the driver realizes that the car just started running a red light, at that point it is better to let it go through the intersection then stop in the middle

https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot

BTW, the Chinese regulators had an issue with the “Full Self-Driving” claim, too, and it is called some kind of driver assist there.

egeezer

real_aurgathor

It’s ‘Full Sellf Driving’. Unless it’s not. 😉

real_aurgathor

egeezer

Obviously not, and they try to weasel out of that by claiming it’s “Supervised”.

Anyhow, found Chinese version which is much closer to reality:

The official update note for Tesla vehicles in China calls it “Autopilot automatic assisted driving on urban roads,” which certainly couches the system considerably more in its actual capabilities than “Full Self-Driving” has elsewhere.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/tesla-full-self-driving-isnt-called-that-in-china

Splitpair

egeezer It’s ‘Full Sellf Driving’. Unless it’s not.

It is not full self driving and is not sold as such, it is known as ADAS, short for Advanced Driver-Assistance Systems.

egeezer

Splitpair
Tesla calls it this;
https://www.tesla.com/fsd
You may want to let them know they ’re labeling it wrong.

real_aurgathor

Another truly strange behavior by Tesla FSD when it allegedly drove onto railroad tracks.

The Tesla reportedly turned left onto the railroad tracks at about 5:30 a.m. on Saturday morning, and according to Western Berks Fire Commissioner Jared Renshaw, it "[w]ent down the tracks approximately 40-50 feet.

the Tesla was able to drive along the tracks for a while before getting stuck. A few minutes later, a train traveling on an adjacent set of tracks came along, taking off the mirror and causing little other damage. Still, authorities were reportedly worried that loading the car onto a flatbed would damage the battery, potentially starting a battery fire that would be difficult to put out, so they instead opted to bring in a crane to lift the Tesla off the tracks.

However, it is not impossible that it was a driver error and they are blaming on the FSD as per: "At least for now, we only have the driver’s word that they were operating the vehicle “in self-drive mode,” so it’s entirely possible they drove onto the tracks themselves and simply blamed it on the software." But according to Jalopnik “This certainly isn’t the first time a Tesla has driven onto train tracks.”

URL: https://www.jalopnik.com/1887837/tesla-in-self-driving-mode-hit-by-train/

JanJ

No thank you: I don’t want one!

real_aurgathor

JanJ

In all honesty, I don’t think Teslas are *that* bad, it’s just that you probably don’t want to rely on autopilot/FSD when driving one.